ID in Uni biology lectures

[SteveN]

Hello fellow Brights in Germany!

First, I wish to apologise for writing in English, but doing this in German would take me five times as long. Please feel free to reply in German, though.

I have a question concerning the acceptibility of 'sneaking' ID into university lectures. My daughter started studying biology at Göttingen University in October and is becoming increasingly incensed by one of her lecturers. Apparently, this particular professor, who is rather advanced in years, often uses phrases such as "when God created the cell he was clever enough to ....." during his lectures. This week, after discussing the complexity of the nervous system he said something like "you can see why it's difficult to believe that something so complex developed by chance". When I suggested to my daughter that he was probably just having a bit of fun with them, she insisted that his attitude is of the "evolution happens, but with a bit of help" type. She did give me a link to an Öffentliche Ringvorlesung that he organised titled "Evolution - Zufall und Zwangsläufigkeit der Schöpfung" (http://www.univerlag.uni-goettingen.de/ring07-08/). Looking at the list of lectures, most seem to be highly interesting scientific talks about evolution, although one by 'his friend the cardinal' titled "Schöpfung und Evolution aus theologischer Sicht" seems a bit out of place.

It seems to me that the professor has an agenda of 'theistic evolution' which he is actively exposing his first-year biology students to. Of course, it's possible that my daughter has mis-interpreted the signs but if it's true then it seems strange to me in this day and age that such an approach is accepted in a biology course at an 'elite' German university. Is this something to be concerned about?

Best regards,


SteveN

[emporda]

It seems to me that the professor has an agenda of 'theistic evolution' which he is actively exposing his first-year biology students to. Of course, it's possible that my daughter has mis-interpreted the signs but if it's true then it seems strange to me in this day and age that such an approach is accepted in a biology course at an 'elite' German university. Is this something to be concerned about?SteveN

I lived about 10 years in/near Göttingen, however, without any direct contact to the University. It is quite clear, this professor sells ID ideolgy. I would recommend to contact Prof. Kutschera at Kassel University, he has better insight and connections to do something about it.

As an example what could (and should) happen to an ID carreer the following from
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2 ... 7_2007.asp

The Boston Globe (December 7, 2007) reports that a former researcher at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is suing the research center, claiming that he was fired, in violation of his civil rights, for not accepting evolution. Nathaniel Abraham, who earned a Ph.D. in biology from St. John's University in 2005, was employed as a post-doctoral researcher in the laboratory of Mark Hahn; according to the Globe, "He was hired by Hahn's marine biology lab in March 2004 because of his expertise working with zebra fish and in toxicology and developmental biology, according to court documents. He did not tell anyone his creationist views before being hired."

Abraham's views become apparent to Hahn in a casual conversation in October 2004, however, and the next month, Hahn asked him in a letter to resign, citing Abraham's "wish not to work on evolutionary aspects of my grant" and writing, "You have indicated that you do not recognize the concept of biological evolution and you would not agree to include a full discussion of the evolutionary implications and interpretations of our research in any co-authored publications resulting from this work. ... This position is incompatible with the work as proposed to NIH and with my own vision of how it should be carried out and interpreted."

[JustFrank]

Alright so far, this example shows that also universities are selling bullshit sometimes. Further it shows how religious people try to undermine science.

[SteveN]

I lived about 10 years in/near Göttingen, however, without any direct contact to the University. It is quite clear, this professor sells ID ideolgy. I would recommend to contact Prof. Kutschera at Kassel University, he has better insight and connections to do something about it.

Thanks for the tip! Looking up Prof. Kutschera's entry in Wikipedia he certainly seems the correct person to contact. As I am myself a biologist (RKI, Berlin) I'll not be shy in emailing him. My only worry is that if I make a big fuss about this my daughter might be the one to suffer the consequences. I'll have to be a bit careful, maybe.

As an example what could (and should) happen to an ID carreer the following from
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2 ... 7_2007.asp

Yes; I've been following this case via the Dawkins and PZ Meyers sites. Of course I have no wish to damage the career of an old and respected university professor who has a realtively mild theological view of evolution. I do however think that he should not be allowed to push these views during official biology lectures at the Uni.

Cheers,

SteveN

[Andreas Müller]

I contacted someone from the AG Evolutionsbiologie, Martin Neukamm. He can surely help.

[pinkwoolf]

I wasn’t even aware that we have such fossils teaching at university level. I’m glad that others have been able to give you advice how to tackle this problem.
I can’t imagine that your daughter might suffer any disadvantages from any action taken, but obviously I’ve been wrong once. What the hell am I doing, gleefully watching ID cases at high schools in American redneck country?

[JustFrank]

Good question pinkwoolf! Germany is also full of creationists on all levels of education an society. The problem over here is, that people are talking not that much about religion as the Americans do. So it's pretty difficult to sort out the ID - supporters.

[SteveN]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have contacted Prof. Kutschera at Kassel University to see what he thinks of the situation. I guess it might be just a 'storm in a teacup', but on the other hand, if this is an example of a university department being unwilling to criticise an old and respected prof just because of his age and reputation, it's the sort of thing that needs to addressed. I'll let you know if Prof. Kutschera replies.

Cheers

SteveN

[folgsam]

I am studying Biology (Bachelor of sc.) at the University of Göttingen myself. I started my first Semester this September and I also had some lectures concerning Neurophysiology held by Prof. Dr. Elsner. While I noticed that he used to make some god related, harmless connections to one or two, not evolutionary topics, I merely paid any attention to them.
When we finally reached the recapitulation of how the neurons calculate the graduated potentials which arrive at the axon hillock, he noticed how its very hard to understand that this mechanism could develop by chance ( I dont quite remember if he said by chance or in the course of an evolutionary process).
I just thought literally : What The Fuck? Did he really say that?


Concerning the public lectures held at the university, I just could menage to hear one of them, held by Bert Hölldobler, a very prominent Sociobiologist and ethologist. The lecture with Cardinal Lehmann speaking was called off, so I couldnt hear that.

Another lecture a week ago had the Topic "Biologie ohne Darwin - Alternativen zum Evolutionsgedanken in der Moderne" (Biology without Darwin - Alternatives to evolution in modern times).

Well, I regret that I didnt hear this one. I asked Dr. Elsner via email if he would upload this lecture, but he has not answered yet.

[Myron]

It seems to me that the professor has an agenda of 'theistic evolution' which he is actively exposing his first-year biology students to.

Both chance and necessity play a crucial role in evolution.
But the kind of necessity involved is not due to the determining will of a god.